Shot Down in Flames
This is a well-known pic of an Israeli Mirage being shot down over the Suez front in 1973. Lacking effective air to air missiles, an Egyptian MIG-21 had to close from behind and blast the Mirage with its cannon. Arab air to air successes were relatively rare but more numerous than Israel has admitted. Dupuy for example wrote that Israel lost 21 aircraft in air battles whereas Herzog admitted only five. Tom Cooper concluded that arab fighters killed 25-30 Israeli jets.
In fact, the jet wasn't a Syrian MIG or an SU. Note the tapering of the nose--quite unlike MIGs or Sukhois. Those aircraft had a blunt nose, with a small protruding cone for their radar.
The jet was in fact an Israeli F-4 Phantom, set ablaze and going down after an engagement with Syrian warplanes, probably MIG-21s. The original claim was typical of media bias favoring the Israeli version of events.
It is true, however, that Israelis scored most of the kills in '73. There is confirmation of this. Below, a Syrian MIG-21 exploding after it was hit. The bottom pic shows an Egyptian MIG-21 going down late in the war, west of the canal. The arrow points to the pilot after ejection. After the loss of much of its SAM network, Egypt had to sacrifice many fighters to provide air cover for its forces.
References
No Victor No Vanquished by Dupuy
ARAB MIGs Vol. 6 by Cooper et al.
posted by starman at 8:59 AM
17 Comments:
The Arabs obviously performed better in the air in 1973 than they had in 1967. Better weaponry was definitely a factor. If the Arabs ever get ahold of some extremely advanced air weapons technology in the future, Israel could have a serious problem.
Yes Arab air forces did better in '73. In 1967 most Arab jets never even got a chance to fight; they were destroyed on the ground. I don't know if, or when Arab air forces will acquire advanced warplanes. In the 2020s they may receive the Russian PAK T-50. There's another intriguing possibility. What if drone warplanes supplant human operated ones? So far, Israel's edge has stemmed mostly from superior pilot training and experience. But what if, by 2030 or so, a new generation of drones makes airmen obsolete? That could go a long way toward erasing Israel's edge.
August 9, 2017
At some point in the future, Israel could lose the edge, especially if the Arabs obtain missiles that are a lot more advanced that the ones which they currently have. As you mentioned, drones could also be a factor.
I'm not sure about missiles. For a long time Israeli jets have had BVR (beyond visual range) capability while arab jets have not. Egypt and other states are only beginning to catch up.
August 11, 2017
It could be a while before the Arabs have the sufficient types of missiles to do significant damage. Long range surface to surface missiles are a factor to consider. However, it does not look like the Arabs will be strong enough in that category to strike Israel in a very powerful way with surface to surface missiles in the near future.
One serious problem is Israeli defenses, such as Iron Dome and Arrow. I don't know if the Russian IskanderE can effectively evade such defenses. I've speculated on possible ways Hamas or Hezbollah could thwart them with their existingk arsenal.
August 11, 2017
Wow,great pics!cool action.
Great pics! I dont think we will see airmen become obsolete anytime soon, yes, drones and unmanned platforms are on the rise but there are many reasons why no nation would allow it to replace humans. First and foremost the possibility of having your expensive toys used against you. You will have a new kind of arms race with electronic warfare taking the lead. I heard from some friends but I didnt verify the news that there was a scandal recently in Uncle Sam when they found that they were using Chinese made parts in some of their drones (I didnt check what kind of drones we are speaking about). Still even if its not true, the potential harm is still there.
Actually, what would be interesting is knowing in detail the difference between the arab (Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi) pilot training and the Israeli. What are the main differences in their training methods.
The tradition of manned aircraft remains strong, but the advantages of drones may prove too great. More could be invested in weapon systems or engines if the cockpit weren't there. And human pilots wouldn't be put in harm's way.
As for training, in the past the Soviets did a disservice to Arab air forces. Egyptians had a "low opinion of Russian training quality." Pilots were taught to fly at medium or high altitude but when war came "it was all fought on the deck."
Another serious problem, then and now, is lack of enough funding for intensive training. Aided by the US, Israel always had plenty of money for thorough training. Arabs had fewer flight hours. Back in '66 an Iraqi MIG pilot who defected to Israel "didn't really know how to fly, even though he was considered one of the elite in his Air Force."
August 13, 2017
Well KSA doesnt have shortage of money (for now) and their air force is terrible even by Arab standards.
What about the Jordanian air force's competency?
The Saudis have relied heavily on foreign mercenary pilots, such as Pakistanis, who are skilled. I don't know what's the matter with Saudi nationals. Back in '91 one almost panicked before US controllers got him to down a couple of Iraqi F-1s.
Jordanian pilots were trained by the British and were quite good. Their Hawker Hunters weren't supersonic but could hold their own against Mirages. Jordanian F-5s fought very well in 1970, picking off Syrian tanks that had crossed into Jordan. I don't know the current state of the RJAF. It may suffer from a lack of modern jets.
I see you're now using your historum username here. :)
August 14, 2017
Hahaha yup,
I thought the Saudi Pilot panicked when he faced an Iraqi ship and fighters? Anyways I am surprised he managed to shoot them down.
I wonder if had Jordan participated in 73 would have caused any material gains on the Golan front.
Your new username sounds better. :) The Saudi pilot panicked while facing Iraqi F-1s over the gulf. US controllers had to guide him. I don't know about Iraqi ships; Iraq had hardly any navy.
Jordan did participate in the '73 war but its participation was limited. Hussein sent a couple of brigades to fight in Syria. They didn't accomplish much and there was no fighting along the Jordan river--the cease fire line between Jordan and Israel.
During a meeting of Arab heads of state in September 1973, Hussein indicated he wasn't ready to open a third front against Israel. He wanted two years to acquire more weapons and train his forces in them. But the contribution Jordan could make, he said, would be worth the delay. I don't know, and of course Egypt and Syria didn't wait.
August 17, 2017
Hey how are you doing Starman? Didnt know where to post this but I just heard some crazy rumors related to the Egyptian military. According to what I heard, Egyptian M1A1 Abrams are designed to be "turned off" whenever they enter certain "zones" in Sinai especially the borders with Israel. So basically the tank gets switched off and its crew are sitting ducks. Another fancy rumor is that all our American planes can only be inspected by American Engineers and we (Egyptians) aren't allowed to tamper with it in any way. I honestly dont believe these rumors but perhaps it reflects the perspective of some servicemen as I heard these rumors directly from them or from people who claim to have heard it from servicemen.
I'm fine thank you, and great as always to see you here. :)
I've heard that Egyptians have had trouble maintaining some US jets, and the F-16 may be one. So maybe US technicians must handle them. The idea of tanks being "switched off" when near Israel is crazy. Why even buy the tanks in the first place, lol. But it isn't surprising we hear rumors like this. Israel's supporters are so influential they've long blocked arms sales to Arab states or imposed conditions intended to minimize the "threat" to Israel. As far back as 1966, when Jordan began receiving M-48s, the tanks were not supposed to be used west of the Jordan. Israel and its backers also tried to prevent Syria from acquiring laser rangefinders for its T-72s etc etc.
This "switch off" rumor isn't credible, but it's no wonder we hear such stories...
September 2, 2017
On the switching off of tanks. British tanks from Chieftain incorporate a "kill switch" for the commander to remotely switch of the main engine. Also incorporated are safety switches that effectively stop the gun control equipment operating and the main armament being fired. In more modern tanks I see no technical reason for these devices not to be incorporated into a "black box" that can be remotely operated via the GPS link. Paranoia? probably, but seeing what seems to be lurking in our PC operating systems, maybe not totally off the wall.
Wheres the dinos?
It's hard to believe a sovereign state worth the name would accept weapons that can be switched off by a foreign power. Egyptian M-1s are assembled in Egypt. Engineers could opt not to install the black box, or remove it. Maybe someday Egypt may buy the T-14 Armata. :).
Most of my dinosaur posts are in my Dinosaur Home blog. I have posted on dinosaurs here, albeit not recently.
September 26, 2017
Post a Comment
<< Home