Amargasaurus
Amargasaurus cazaui was among the last of the dicraeosaurids. It lived in what is now Argentina. The remains of A. cazaui were found in the lowest, Puestal Antigual member of the La Amarga formation. This unit is thought to be early Barremian in age c 129 Ma. Amargasaurus was a rather small sauropod, about 9-10m in length. It shared its habitat with theropods, the bigger dicraeosaur Amargatitanis, the rebbachisarid Zapalasaurus, unnamed titanosaurs and the only ornithiscian known from the La Amarga, a stegosaur informally named Amargastegos.
Amargasaurus is best known for its spiny neck, a feature unique among sauropods. The spines may have evolved to attract mates, or as a means of defense. An abelisaur, Ligabueino, lived alongside A. cazaui as did another theropod, possibly a carcharodontosaur.
Like a stegosaur's plates, cervical spines made a defender appear more formidable. No doubt, theropods often targeted the neck of a sauropod, so spines may have deterred such attacks. They may even have been used as horns, to impale predators. By lowering its head, Amargasaurus could point its spines at an attacker. But the uniqueness of this defense, and lack of any later dicraeosaur, suggests it was not particularly effective.
posted by starman at 3:21 AM
44 Comments:
In one of his volumes on ARAB MIGs Tom Cooper doesn't deny the Mansoura battle occurred. He just says the size of the battle has been exaggerated. I could find the book around here but off the top of my head I recall Copper wrote that only about 27 Phantoms attacked EAF bases on the 14th. Two may have been downed by MIG-21s, instead of the four claimed in the ACIG (at least one of those kills--Wakeel's?--occurred prior to the 14th).
Copper said the Mansoura battle was hyped up to strengthen Mubarack when he became a political ally and associate of Sadat.
Could the Third Army's two trapped divisions--the 7th and 19th--have broken out of the trap? There were three problems:
1. Lack of much remaining armor, as the 25th was mostly gone and the 3rd armored and 22nd withdrawn back east.
2. Lack of air cover.
3. Lack of a logistical tether, or supplies.
The Egyptians may have stood a good chance of wiping out the IDF bridgehead west of the canal in December 1973 (Shamel). I assume they planned to reach Third Army quickly to provide SAM cover and supplies. They were urgently needed, since the bulk of Israeli forces had returned east to try to crush the Third if war resumed. The need to reach the Third quickly may explain why an Algerian armored division was (according to Drew Middleton of the NYT) positioned south of Suez, along the shore of the gulf of Suez.
November 11, 2018
Although Amargasaurus had those cervical spines on the upper part of the neck, they were not present on the lower portion. The underside of the neck was vulnerable.
Hi Neal. True the underside of the neck had no spines. But were they necessary? I believe the deadliest teeth of a theropod were the maxillary teeth. Those of the dentary tend to be smaller.
Some time ago, researchers discovered that Stegosaurus had gular or throat armor. It didn't depend entirely on its dorsal osteoderms to protect its neck.
November 12, 2018
I'm open to the possibility that Amargasaurus may have had throat armor. However, I don't know how effective that it would have been. It might have worked better against some theropods than it would have against others.
Unfortunately we know very little about La Amarga theropods. Besides Ligabueino, there may have been a relation of Neovenator or Concavenator present.
Even without throat armor, dorsal spines prevented the usual way of biting a sauropod's neck--the upper jaw striking the dorsal part while the lower jaw touched the bottom. If a theropod couldn't get its jaws around the neck like that, because of the cervical spines, it may not have attacked the neck at all.
I suppose its upper and lower jaws could've struck the neck on opposite sides, but a theropod would have to attack at an awkward angle. Crouching with its head upturned may not have been practical.
November 12, 2018
Here is a question, if operation Shamel was carried out and the IDF's bridgehead was wiped out, what forces did the IDF still have on the other side of the canal?
BTW, for a story I am writing, did you hear/read about any Egyptian last stands especially infantry units during the 67 war?
Early in November 1973 the Israelis withdrew the bulk of their armor from the west bank. They wanted it to be able to crush the Third Army, without the canal in their way, which was the case on the west bank.
Offhand I don't know what specific units the IDF had on the east bank in December 1973 but that's where their main force was by then. If I remember right, Adan's division pulled out in November. Sharon, however, might've stayed. Again, my memory may not be perfect but I recall Dayan wrote that Sharon, in November or December 1973, pointed out to him places on the east bank "where it would be easy to get behind the Egyptian lines." But the main focus by then was probably defending. A lot of their strength had moved back east. When the remaining Israelis pulled out in 1974, they had to dig up a lot of mines they had planted to stop an Egyptian attack.
I'm not sure what you mean by last stands. Do you mean a situation in which an infantry unit was still holding out behind Israeli lines after most of its division had been overcome? I don't recall anything like that. Of course there were examples of holdouts in 1973, like the commandos in the Sudr pass, and the troops at Kabrit.
November 14, 2018
I never found western material on Kabrit, nor Israeli material. I actually meant units deciding to hold their ground so their comrades or other nearby units could reach the Suez Canal.
Actually I never heard of the commandos in Sudr Pass.
In THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, Rabinovich included the experiences of an Egyptian at Kabrit. The Churchill brothers wrote, in THE SIX DAY WAR, that during the retreat some Egyptian armor tried to stop the Israelis or at least delay their advance. Consisting of SU-100 tank destroyers and T-55 tanks this unit fought east of the defiles. The T-55s knocked out ten Israeli tanks before they were overcome.
The same book(?) mentioned another Egyptian "last stand." If I remember right, it was west of the Mitla. Egyptian tanks shot at Israeli vehicles, with some success, until long range gunnery beat them.
There was also a counterattack by 40 T-55s in the Gafgafa pass area. The T-55s encountered Israeli AMX light tanks, and initially had the advantage. According to the account I read, shells fired by the AMXs bounced off T-55 armor, and the Israelis withdrew a kilometer. Later, however, the T-55s were thrown back...
I'm sure I mentioned these actions in some previous post, but offhand I don't remember which one--"Egyptian Tanks Again"(?) or "More on the Soviet Claim"(?)
In the old Egypt subforum (Iran Defense) HORAS provided detailed accounts of various actions and units. If my memory is good, he wrote that Egyptian commandoes blocked the Sudr pass for just about the whole war. They ambushed and destroyed some Israeli vehicles that entered but were withdrawn at the end of the war.
Oh by the way, here we just went from fall to winter overnight. Heavy, wet snow, as early as mid November...
Anyway, good luck with your story!
November 16, 2018
https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/9u1axt/a_local_egyptian_boy_stands_tall_in_front_of_some/
https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/view-of-israel-defense-forces-troops-keeping-watch-on-news-photo/1064541550
https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/view-from-sinai-through-barbed-wire-defences-of-israel-news-photo/1064541554
https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/view-from-sinai-through-barbed-wire-defences-of-israel-news-photo/1064541558
https://www.gettyimages.ae/detail/news-photo/egyptian-soldiers-arrive-at-the-east-bank-of-the-suez-canal-news-photo/128493142
Thanks for the great pics! I liked the pic with the Egyptian boy wearing a German helmet, with wrecked panzers in the background. I think one of them was a Panzer IIIj Special, as it was called in the old TOBRUK wargame. It had a longer 50mm gun than the standard IIIh, and could fire APCR ammo capable of penetrating the thick (for its time) armor on British Matilda and Grant tanks. It's been a long time since I played that wargame.
By the way, this morning I pointed my 150mm "starblast" telescope toward Orion and saw M42 in the sword of the celestial hunter. It was a star studded, fuzzy little patch.
November 17, 2018
https://twitter.com/ArmoryBazaar/status/1064185086009061376
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68HNHaw96lo
Again, thanks for links. Isn't it ironic that the Uzi was made for Iran, lol. The vid about US problems in fighting a conventional war, after all the counterinsurgency, was also interesting. Btw some vids claim KSA is losing in Yemen, and will be finished in the future, due to more competition from other oil producers and new technologies.
November 19, 2018
Did Iran purchase the Uzis during the Iran -Iraq War or was it before the Islamic Revolution?
BTW ever saw this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwebtMK_pbU&t=181s
It said the Uzi was made for Iran and exported from 1964-1979. That was before the 1979 revolution. I assume exports stopped at that point. I'll check that vid soon.
November 20, 2018
Thanks again for the Binkov vid on Egypt vs Israel 2017, I liked it very much even if it moved along too fast. It was quite informative and reasonable, even if an Egypt-Israel war, if it ever comes, will probably be well in the future so circumstances, weapons etc will be vastly changed from those described in the vid.
November 21, 2018
What do you think of this? Sorry for my short posts, extremely busy.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/morocco-tipped-off-israeli-intelligence-helped-israel-win-six-day-war/
BTW, its odd that he didnt mention Egyptian chemical and biological arsenal.
This wouldn't be surprising. Long ago I read that since 1962 Morocco has had close but secret relations with Israel. If I remember right, it hosted a secret meeting between Sadat and Dayan before Sadat's trip to Jerusalem in '77.
An old book mentioned Egypt's Research Center and the chemical weapons it produced, some used in Yemen. In '67 the Israelis didn't take advantage of their opportunity to destroy the Research Center. At least one Israeli suggested they would regret that, but Egypt never did use chemical weapons against Israel.
November 24, 2018
Pretty sure the Egyptians didnt want to escalate things with Israel or turn the entire world against themselves. The gas attacks in Yemen caused quite the controversy, attacking Israelis with it and the global media would scream Holocaust 2.
http://segulamag.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/1973_sinai_war_maps2.png
I wonder if the 25th could have pulled back to Suez City, but even then, it would get mauled by IAF's free reign in that region.
What did the Moroccans gain from having a secretive relationship with Israel, especially when Nasser supported both Algerian and Moroccan independence?
Sure, it would've been crazy to use gas against Israel (unless Israel used WMD first).
I think that map shows the 21st armored and 25th brigades attacking farther east than they really did.
The best thing the 25th could've done was to ignore the order to attack northward into a trap and instead pull back west, and establish ambush positions in the Geneifa hills. I know that would be very hard to get away with but maybe the 25th's commander and Shazli could've made a plan to deceive Sadat. First, they could've claimed the 25th attacked after midnight on the 17th but were repelled and had to pull back. Then quietly withdraw the 25th back west from October 17-19. It was important to get the T-62s etc in the Geneifa by the afternoon of the 19th because Adan's forces overran the area on the night of the 19th-20th.
If the 25th had pulled back to Suez city it could've counterattacked out from there later, but it would've been best to prevent the Israelis from reaching Suez in the first place. Deployment in the Geneifa hills might've achieved that.
Morocco was ruled by a king (Hasan?). He was probably worried that Nasser's revolutionary regime would undermine his own. So maybe he hoped the defeat of Nasser would eliminate the challenge, and was even willing to help Israel do it (albeit secretly of course).
November 24, 2018
Did you know that the Jordanians wanted to carry out an all-out air attack on Egyptian forces during the early years in Yemen? Fortunately, defections happened from the Jordanian and Saudi side which foiled that plan...I will try to find more info about it in English.
In the end what really mattered to the leaders in the Arab world is the throne. That's why Saladin fought Saracens more than he fought the Crusaders.
How was the 25th spotted and an ambush set up easily for it? I heard that one of the relatives of the KIA'd brigade commander was involved in Sadat's assassination, was it a coincidence or vendetta, don't really know.
There are rumors you would hear on the street here and then that Sadat on purpose allow a series of defeats to happen so Israel would cross to the other side to save its 'face' and help negotiate a diplomatic deal....lol.
I knew King Hussein wasn't on good terms with Nasser then, but I never knew the Jordanians wanted to carry out an all-out air attack on Egyptian forces in Yemen.
Yes, I've heard that arab leaders will stop at nothing to stay in power. Iraqi and Syrian rulers promoted only men from the minority groups that supported their regimes. Saddam and Assad did not want pilots of shiite and sunni origin, respectively, because they might plot a coup. The problem was, excluding men from the majority groups, in both countries, severely limited the pool of talent from which to recruit pilots (and other officers). Pilot quality and performance suffered as a result, just so the rulers could feel safe in power.
I think the Israelis learned about the coming attack of the 25th (and 1st brigade, 21st armored division) from a spy at Egypt's military headquarters (Center Ten). Adan's tanks were already waiting when the 25th's T-62s came. They had foreknowledge of Egyptian plans. But part of the problem was the 25th's lengthy delay in advancing. That enabled the Israelis to deal with the 21st first and then the 25th. A coordinated attack--as originally intended--might have done at least somewhat better (foolish as Sadat's order was).
Some time ago, I speculated about what might have happened if the 25th raced overnight (October 16-17) to the Gafgafa pass and established a defensive position there. The brigade would've been destroyed, but such a move might've panicked the Israelis into abandoning the crossing. The 25th might also have inflicted high losses if the IDF tried to storm its positions in the pass.
I wouldn't be surprised if a relative of the 25th's dead commander wanted to kill Sadat. As you once wrote here, Sadat's assassins included nationalists as well as religious fanatics. The nationalists probably wanted to avenge the deaths of Badawy (who was probably killed in a planned "accident" on Sadat's orders) and the 25th's CO.
Lol indeed, rumors like that are idiotic. Even Sadat wasn't THAT dumb.
November 24, 2018
Was the spy in the Egyptian HQ's real identity ever brought out to the public? Regarding the T-62s, was there any other armored brigade that had a similar number of T-62s or at least considered 'sizeable'?
I find it odd that no forces, even if considered token forces were rushes to the west side of the canal in anticipation to Israeli crossing. I actually found a picture (I have it somewhere) to an IDF tank that fell off a bridge due to Egyptian airstrike. TU-16s should have been used to take out the crossing forces and with every Escort fighter available in the EAF. But hey, I am no military historian or expert, but that is just me, I know we used a single SCUD during the very last days of the war, but where on earth were our FROG-7s?!
I never read what happened to the 21st Infantry actually.
Offhand I don't know who the spy at Center Ten was. There is some confusion over the role of Ashraf Marwan, who was close to Sadat. The Israelis considered him a spy who forewarned them of the Egyptian attack. But after the war at least one Israeli, Zeira(?) concluded Marwan really deceived the Israelis. If I remember right he told them the attack would begin at 6 P.M. when it really began at 2. If not at all sure but maybe the Egyptians concluded that by October 6 Israeli intelligence would definitely know war was coming, and the best the Egyptians could do was fool them about the time. Getting the Israelis to believe war would occur at 6 instead of 2--so they'd think they had more time to prepare than they really did--might give the first Egyptian attacks the advantage of surprise. On the other hand some book says Marwan was a genuine spy who "saved Israel."
In 1973 Egypt had two brigades equipped with T-62s. Besides the 25th there was also the 15th, in the northern 18th division sector around Qantara.
As early as October 15 Shazy, fearing a possible Israeli crossing, urged Sadat to return some units to the west bank. Sadat not only refused but threatened Shazly with a court martial...
In my opinion, it would've been best for Egypt to attack the crossing site with just artillery and use its airpower to strike at Israeli supply columns (and combat forces) heading west or south from it. The crossing site was well defended by antiaircraft units and fighters, so attacking it cost the EAF too many planes. TU-16s might've achieved a lot by strafing Israeli truck columns west and south of Fayid.
I don't know about the FROG-7s. I don't think they were very accurate and would've made much difference had they been used.
I don't think there was a 21st infantry division. The 21st armored division lost most of its tanks fighting in Sinai. All three of its brigades were sent east before the Israeli crossing. The brigades fought hard in the Chinese farm, but it was very costly.
November 26, 2018
Check this out and check the comments./..tried to contact him in private but didnt read my messages...its a battlefield!
I will get back to you soon
https://www.facebook.com/keksifarm.hayday/posts/2175186076085293
I probably didn't access the right post as I've been having issues with facebook. I saw one where Tom Cooper denies F-15s were slaughtered in air combat and the score is 104 to 0 in its favor. (Iraq did shoot down one F-15 in combat but a SAM got the kill.)
November 27, 2018
I actually SPOKE WITH TOM COOPER! I had a fanboy ecstasy lol.
Anyways here is his personal view on the Mansoura Air Battle, personally told to me!
Re. 'Battle of el-Mansourah': on 14 October, the Israelis deployed 27-28 F-4Es to strike Tanta AB. The first formation of these acted as decoy: it went for el-Mansourah.
Now, because the Israelis deployed massive volumes of electronic warfare, this created an image of 'hundreds' of Phantoms coming in. The ADC thus scrambled 70+ MiG-21s - and sent nearly all of them over el-Mansourah.
Thus, only few MiGs caught with Phantoms that attacked Tanta AB.
Outcome of all the 'air battles' is unclear. The Israelis claimed 6 MiGs as shot down; confirmed are 2.
The Egyptians claimed.... ah well... Cairo media claimed 15-17. Confirmed is 0.
Now, since that attack caused next to no damage to Tanta (and even less so to el-Mansourah), the Israelis re-attacked on 15 October again. This time with two formations of F-4Es.
This time the ADC worked much better, so at least two formations of Phantoms got caught by MiGs.
Outcome: the Israelis claimed some 4-5 MiGs as shot down; 1 is confirmed. MiG killed 1 F-4E probably damaged 2 others.
BTW the Entire ARAB MIGS series is for 30 British Pounds...5 per book!
https://www.aviation-bookshop.com/asp/bargainBooks.asp
One of his books that will be published next year
https://scontent.fkwi5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/47030068_1132377753578980_8816938645979136000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent.fkwi5-1.fna&oh=5a47ad52503c90a53718805d4eea8b1c&oe=5C77B712
BTW, I showed him your blog ;)
Ahmed Zayed, one of the founders of 73 Historians, went on attacking him personally on his (Tom Cooper's) facebook page and Tom Cooper apparently exposed some of Ahmed's photo fabrications.
If you checked Tom Cooper's main page, you will see a photo of an F-4 Phantom with 73 Historians watermark...check that thread out and prepare for the carnage!
Tom Cooper will have TWO books out in 2019. One will be on Iraqi F-1s the other on the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in '82.
I'm surprised I'm the only one who reviewed Tom Cooper's book on the MIG-23 in the Middle East, on amazon. If he saw my post on his book here in this blog, he probably knows I'm the amazon reviewer. :)
I may not get the book on F-1s next year, because the book on MIG-23s already includes an account of the best performance by F1s, during the Iran-Iraq war--the successful employment of the "giraffe" tactic against Iranian Tomcats. F-1s didn't shoot down anything in 1991.
Yes there are zero confirmed Phantom kills by the EAF on October 14. That ARAB MIGS book (the second one about the '73 war) mentions an EAF pilot firing at a Phantom. He observed a flash, then smoke and, assuming a kill, was very excited ("Allah akbar!"). But F-4s were tough so it may have been just damaged.
I already mentioned the reason, given in the book, why the October 14 air battle was excessively hyped (to bolster Mubarak, as he was an associate of Sadat).
November 28, 2018
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/03/27/saa-vehicle-losses-2011-2017/
Thanks for the article. The 6th largest tank fleet in the world has been wrecked...over 2,000 armored vehicles lost...Oh well, at least the SAA has gained some experience and the lost armor may be replaced eventually. Most of it was becoming obsolete and would've had to be replaced anyway. I hope Russia is generous with Syria, and provides better arms than ever in the coming decade.
November 29, 2018
Israel carried attacks using ballistic missiles on Syria two nights ago.
I highly doubt whatever experience gained would stay for long, even then, it will experience based on COIN and not conventional battles
I heard about the latest Israeli attacks, targeting Iranian, Hez positions, HQs etc. The IAF, as before, used stand off munitions. There different versions as to the effectiveness of Syrian air defenses (Pantsyr was used) damage etc. Someone suggested an Israeli jet was downed but none were said to have entered Syrian airspace (just their projectiles).
True, the Syrian civil war has been mostly counterinsurgency operations. Still, the rebels had a lot of conventional weapons, and Syrian, Iranian etc troops have gained experience in the field. It seems a whole Syrian generation has just grown up fighting.
Trump pragmatically resists calls to punish KSA for the Khashoggi killing, but the US Congress wants more done. They want an end to US support for KSA's operations in Yemen. If that happened, the Houthis and Iran would benefit somewhat.
December 1, 2018
Starman! Egy Defense, Gomig, and Amir Pharoah request your presence on twitter! We are reuniting Iran defense! Once you have a twitter account do inform me so I can add you to the group!
I dont think any of the rebel groups fought in a conventional style except for ISIS, even then, I can't really compare ISIS tactical acumen to that of the IDF.
You reminded me, insurgents/ rebels have a weird tactic, whenever they have a combined arms advance, they would bring MBTs forward with the infantry stacked behind it in on or two columns, which makes me wonder what would happen to them if it got blown up by an ATGM or an airstrike lol.
That's great news! I was hoping some of them would come HERE, and have no experience with twitter but I'll see.
December 8, 2018
I just established an account.
What is your account?
You should message Egy Defense review and he will add you in the group
https://twitter.com/EgyGreenfly
OK I just sent him a message. Btw even after I'm in this twitter group, I still hope to see you here too. :)
December 9, 2018
Quick question, what would have happened in your opinion if the 25th and 21st brigades managed to carry out the attack without the IDF knowing about the 25th advance...
The Egyptians would've had to get the order to attack to 21st Armored Division (1st Armored brigade) and 25th Armored brigade, without the Israelis knowing about it. From what I've read, there was a spy working for Israel in Center Ten. If Shazly, and a few others had known this, but not the identity of the person, they could've tried to get disinformation to Israel on the 16th. Sadat and Ismail might've openly stated they agreed that a counterattack was too risky and the 25th and 21st armored were to be pulled back on the 17th and 18th. Then Shazly could've telephoned the commanders of the brigades, and told them any pullback order was false, to confuse a possible spy at headquarters. Their true orders, Shazly insisted, were to converge on the Israeli crossing point, wipe out enemy forces and seal the gap.
But even if Israel were not forewarned of the attack, surprise (or any chance of success) would've required that it be carried out at night. The 25th would have to get moving before midnight on the 16-17th, and the 1st soon afterwards. In this scenario, the 25th would not have been ambushed east of the Bitter lake by an alerted enemy. But numerically the attackers would've been at a disadvantage. If I remember correctly, Adan had around 200 tanks in the crossing area and Sharon maybe 50 (some of Sharon's tanks had crossed by the 17th and many had been lost in the Chinese farm, but he still had Tuvia's brigade with around 50). Against these 250 IDF tanks, the 25th had maybe 75 and the 1st around 60 or so. Numerically the odds were roughly 2:1 in Israel's favor. If the Egyptians had night vision capability that and tactical surprise, would've been their only chance. I tend to doubt the counterattack would've been successful even had circumstances been more favorable. No doubt, it could've inflicted FAR higher losses than in real life and, if sudden and unexpected, might even have panicked the Israelis into abandoning the crossing. Still, I think the best use of the brigades would've been to pull them back and establish ambush positions with them, in the jebel Geneifa and elsewhere.
December 12, 2018
I also believe that pulling back the forces would have been a better idea, yet, we weren't in the shoes of Egyptian High Command when all of this was unforeseen. I understand why Sadat would have wanted them to immediately attack the IDF forces preparing to cross the Suez, as the closest forces available, he didnt think about it with a clear mind though.
You know? According to the book M60 VS Saggers, Shazly secret pulled a small force to the Ismalia region armed with saggers, including BRDMs with Sagger rails, they played a major role in holding back the IDF Forces.
I wonder what it would have taken Sadat to get it through his bald head to pull most of his forces back to the mainland. The arrival of fresh Arab expedition forces, as well as the pulling of Egyptian forces, would be similar to a Soviet tide rushing towards German defenses, hence why the IDF planted a lot of mines.
Still, highly doubt the US would watch the entire IDF force in Egypt get wiped out (no matter the losses on Arab side) without intervening.
Good to see you back here. :)
In fact, to my knowledge, the Egyptian generals opposed the October 17 attack. Even after the disaster of the 14th Sadat acted against their advice. Shazly certainly thought the attack was a mistake. Third Army commander Wassel felt it was suicidal. Wassel was so desperate to avoid wrecking the 25th he called around 3 A.M. to claim that technical problems would prevent the tanks from advancing. Shazly told him the attack had to go forward--not because he believed in it but because it had been ordered. After the 25th began moving north, its commander delayed for some time. He probably hoped the attack would be called off before his T-62s fell into a trap....
Shazly correctly foresaw that an Israeli crossing attempt was coming and, to prepare for it, he advocated pulling some units back west as early as October 15. Sadat angrily rejected his suggestion and threatened Shazly with a court martial--for suggesting the right thing!!??
I knew that Shazly pulled some sagger units pack west. He had to do it secretly because Sadat didn't wise up until it was too late. Some units like the 3rd armored brigade and also the 22nd I think, were withdrawn late in the war. Had those units (and the 1st and 15th armored farther north) been sent back west when Shazly called for it, things would've turned out better for Egypt.
December 21, 2018
By the way, I ordered the Sagger vs M-60 book. I doubt I'll learn much that's new, but it may be interesting. :)
The history of the '73 war continues to fascinate but what we really need now is a work on "new antitank system vs Israeli Trophy AD." Lol.
December 21, 2018
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