Sunday, September 01, 2024

Dating Error

Desmond's The Hot Blooded Dinosaurs is an old, mid 70s book. It's main purpose is to show that dinosaurs were endothermic not gargantuan reptiles. The book also addresses the issue of extinction. At the time, the impact theory was not established and other views were still in vogue. The author noted evidence for a gradual demise instead of a sudden, catastrophic one. Among both dinosaurs and ammonoids, diversity in North American waned before the end. Desmond mentioned other evidence: eggshell pathologies in Europe. Unknown at the time, these do point to extinction but it was only partial, and not associated with the K-Pg. A summary of the book's view:

Can we ever witness the suffering of dinosaurs towards the end? What evidence could reveal the anguish of creatures separated from us by 70 million years? The last dinosaurs were subjected to unbearable pressure. That much is certain. Evidence comes from the French Pyrenees. As Professor Erben noted, local eggs display features indicative of a crisis. The strata in which the eggs are found are of late Maastrichtian age and therefore document the period immediately prior to the final extinction of the dinosaurs. Erben's analysis has had startling and unforeseen results. The stratigraphically highest eggs display thinning; shell thickness fell from 2.5mm to just 1mm. In birds, thinning of eggshell is associated with stress from predation, poisoning etc. In the latest Cretacous, this condition proved fatal as a fetus could not derive enough calcium to build a skeleton. Desmond's conclusion: "The majestic dinosaurs....had departed not with a bang but with a whimper--the whimper of the young as they perished incarcerated in tiny prisons."

The problem is, the dating of the Pyrenees strata was erroneous. The strata are of middle Maastrichtian age, and therefore irrelevant to the final extinction. Although stress, reproductive issues and extinction really happened, only local taxa were affected and they were replaced. The crisis resulted from an influx of lambeosaurs into western Europe. Blasisaurus and others outcompeted local titanosaurs, rhabdodonts and ankylosaurs. Loss of their niche severely stressed the titanosaurs. The result was pathology and extinction. But dinosaurs generally lived on, until the K-Pg three million years later.

Assigning a late Maastrichtian age to a somewhat older unit was once common. Because of widespread erosion at the K-Pg, the geological record is strongly biased against late Maastrichtian strata. The North American record is an exception. Elsewhere, units of 71-68 Ma are the youngest Cretaceous horizon hence were often mistaken for the end. Examples include the Sanpetru formation of Romania and the Amur localities of east Asia. Evidence from such units has no bearing on the final demise.

Eggshell pathologies do occur in close proximity to the K-Pg elsewhere, in southern China. Researchers have documented eggshell anomalies in the Nanxiong. However, even these predate the K-Pg and the presumed cause was different. In India, Deccan volcanism spewed chemical pollutants into the atmosphere. Transported to southern China by the wind, the pollutants adversely affected the local biota. Nanxiong pathologies suggest extinction, albeit of limited geographical extent. Contaminated eggshells may be the only evidence for a Deccan role in the K-Pg. Chicxulub was undoubtedly the main cause. (Tyrannosaurus seems to have had an impact c mid Maastrichtian but a subsequent role, while possible, is quite speculative.)

References

Desmond, Adrian. The Hot Blooded Dinosaurs Dial Press 1976.

Sellas, Albert. Vila, Bernat. Galobart, Angel. Evidence of Reproductive Stress in Titanosaurian Sauropods Triggered by an increase in Ecological Competition. Scientific Reports 2017.

Below, Desmond's book, published in 1976.

10 Comments:

Anonymous Neal Eugene Robbins said...

Diseases could have reduced dinosaur populations in some areas, but there is no way that they could have exterminated the dinosaurs. The meteorite caused the mass extinction at the end of the Cretaceous. The idea that dinosaurs were endothermic may have some partial truth, but it is probably fallacious to assume that such was the case with all dinosaurs. Evidence has shown that some dinosaurs lived in cold climates, so they apparently had some degree of endothermy. However, others inhabited places with tropical climates.

9:32 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Hi Neal,

Bakker argued that climate had nothing to do with endothermy. If being an endotherm conferred no advantage in a warm climate and ectothermy was more advantageous, the tropics would be overrun by giant frogs and snakes. Instead the dominant tropical animals are endothermic elephants, rhinos, hippos etc.

September 3, 2024

11:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The dating error is evidence of a critical flaw in Desmond's argument. Amphibians and reptiles in tropical and subtropical places are not necessarily large. Some amphibians and reptiles in cooler environments are larger than some in warmer domains. Not all mammals in cold sectors are large; some are quite large.

11:46 AM  
Anonymous Neal Eugene Robbins said...

The eggs pathologies did not help things with dinosaurs, but they could not have wiped them out. The dating error is evidence that Desmond's arguments were flawed. Some reptiles and amphibians in colder climates are larger than some in warmer climates.

11:49 AM  
Blogger starman said...


Egg pathologies weren't the crux of the problem, just symptomatic of it. The problem was environmental change causing severe stress. It's possible this happened soon after the asteroid struck and at many other times and for many other reasons.


September 4, 2024

1:39 AM  
Blogger starman said...

A new saltasauroid titanosaur has been named--Qunkasaura. This taxon lived in Spain between 75 and 70 million years ago, or roughly the time of the Campanian-Maastrichtian boundary. Qunkasaura may have existed too early to have experienced the ecological crisis caused by the lambeosaur invasion of c middle Maastichtian time. But if it was still around c 70 ma or a little later, its embryos may have been among those that "went out with a whimper."

3:17 AM  
Anonymous Neal Eugene Robbins said...

Hopefully additional fossil remains of Qunkasaura will soon be found. That could reveal important information. The holotype of Qunkasaura is not perfect, though it is good.

4:19 PM  
Blogger Martin wong said...

I read the main article, your comments and counter comments with much enthusiasm and interest. Dating fossils has been an enigmatic topic to intriquing minds like ours. And the story of egg shells thinning certainly threw in more moving parts in determining its accuracy. I forgot the reasons the article provided for shell thinning.
But on related issues sometimes our inquisitive minds tend to wander. Even in the present day with the planet kind of overpopulated with humans exhausting marine resources make one wonder with all the shellfish harvesting how long will mollusks and bivalves last before they experience similar problems as calcium depletion from the marine environments.
How long will our chicken and its egg farming sustain the business before we see defects in poultry eggs with their substandard feeds. Just wondering on some related issues 😃

2:46 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Hi Martin,

Thank you for your input. You raise an interesting question. Sustained, heavy harvesting of shellfish may deplete available calcium for new generations of the creatures. Offhand I don't know if any anthropogenic activity restores calcium to the ocean, compensating for the constant loss of shells.
It's likely eggshell thinning due to stress was a widespread phenomenon c 69 ma. What lambeosaurs caused in Europe, tyrannosaurs may have caused in Laramidia. I wouldn't be surprised if Pachyrhinosaurus or Regaliceratops eggs displayed pathologies due to stress caused by heavy predation.

September 9, 2024

3:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Baker was right on that. But how big can ectotherms get in cold climates? Wonambi was much, much smaller than pop paleo suggests. Pareiasaurs were around in cold climates, and grew larger than endothermic(?) dicynodonts in the same localities. The biggest land chelonians were always tropical to subtropical.

Which is surprising given the big teleosts and sharks in colder waters.

3:51 AM  

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