Saturday, March 26, 2016

Alternate Airstrike Scenario 1973

Volume 5 of ARAB MIGS 1973 indicates the EAF originally had more ambitious plans that those it carried out on October 6.  Instead of limiting themselves to targets in Sinai, the Egyptians contemplated attacking an airbase in Israel proper. A  mission against Hatzerim, however, was called off because of the limited endurance of available warplanes. Not even the Libyan Mirages could bomb a target that far away and return to Egypt.
Did the Arabs have any hope of crippling the Israeli airforce at the outset of a war? The Israelis assumed, incorrectly, that this was a prerequisite for initiating hostilities. In fact, Shazly abandoned hope of Egypt acquiring air superiority and opted for reliance on surface to air missiles (SAMs). In theory, though, the Arabs might have badly degraded the IAF at the start. This would've required major changes and preparations beginning at least two years prior to the outbreak of war:

  • First, Syria, not Egypt, should have assumed the responsibility for planning and carrying out an assault on the IAF. Syrian bases were on average closer to Israeli bases than the EAF's were. Endurance wouldn't have been such a problem.
  • To achieve its objective, the Syrian Air Force needed better aircraft than its MIG-17s, SU-7s and MIG-21s. It required many SU-20s, and MIG-23s to escort them to the target areas. MIG-23s weren't very maneuverable but had the necessary endurance.
  • Beginning in late 1969, after Ghadafy came to power, Syria should have pressured Libya not to buy Mirages from France but instead use the money to get the Soviet aircraft required for the mission. About 100 SU-20s and 50 MIG-23s would have sufficed and probably cost no more than Mirages. Moscow would have supplied the MIG-23s and SU-20s in exchange for hard currency, which Libya had and Egypt etc didn't. It wouldn't have been so difficult to get the USSR to sell the planes; nor would it have been hard to induce Libya to transfer them to Syria. Ghadafy was so anti-Israel he would've agreed to send them to a frontline state (historically he sent Mirages to Egypt). The Syrian Air Force could've had the necessary warplanes by the start of 1973.
  • To ensure it could absorb the new jets, the SAF would have to assign all MIG-17 and SU-7 pilots to SU-20s and many MIG-21 pilots to MIG-23s. The airmen would've had 6-12 months to become familiar with their new jets.
Syria would also make a trade with Egypt. The latter would keep its MIG-17 squadron at home instead of sending it to Syria, as in real life. In exchange Syria would get the Iraqi Hawker Hunters sent to Egypt historically. Skilled Hunter pilots would be vital to help the SAF achieve its daunting task.

Acquisition of the right aircraft wouldn't have been enough. The mission required careful planning and execution:
  • To maximize range and endurance, all attacking jets would carry only gun ammunition (30mm). The goal should be to destroy as many Israeli jets on the ground as possible.
  • The Iraqi Hunters would've lead the attack. Passing through Lebanese territory, below radar coverage, they would head straight for Ramat David, the key northern IAF base. There, they would shoot up enemy warplanes and prevent them from hindering a deeper penetration of Israeli airspace. The Hunter attack would be timed to coincide with the crossing of the Israeli occupied Golan by the main Syrian force. This force would then head for the main bases of central Israel--Tel Noff and Hatzor.
  • The principal strike force would consist of three groups. The first, flying at medium altitude, would be a decoy force consisting of about 36 expendable jets e.g. gunless MIG-21 variants and SU-7s, flown by washout trainees. Behind them would be about three dozen MIG-23s flying below radar coverage. Also at low altitude, farther back, would be the actual attack force of fifty SU-20s.
  • The plan would be to lure the remaining Israeli interceptors (i.e. not based at Ramat David), to go after the three dozen decoy jets. If things went according to plan, the Israeli Mirages and Neshers would approach and strike the decoys from the rear, using up many missiles and shells downing them. While they were preoccupied doing this, the 36 MIG-23s would emulate an old Israeli tactic and ambush their opponents from behind. Over a dozen IAF jets might've been downed or crippled and the remainder would've had to deal with MIG-23s.
  • Unhindered by enemy jets, the 50 SU-20s would then hit enemy airfields. About half would peel off to strike Tel Noff, the rest would go after Hatzor. All would strafe IAF planes on the ground. The highest priority targets would be Phantoms but Skyhawks and Mysteres could also be set ablaze. With luck, at least 50 Israeli jets would be eliminated. Added to the Ramat David score, and those shot down by MIG-23s, that might've raised the total to about 80--far more than the Israelis lost in the first three days. Other than expendable planes and pilots, the SAF might've lost only 5-10 jets and airmen.
  • While half of the SAF's SU-20s were striking enemy bases, the rest would be hitting Israeli tanks on Golan. If Syria refrained from massing armor opposite the Golan until October 2-4 (as was noted before) Israel wouldn't have sent the 7th armored brigade in time to bolster defenses there. Given 36 or so operational SU-20s to attack IDF armor (while the rest were attacking airfields),  Syria might have knocked out half of the 71 tanks it initially faced. In that case, the Israeli brigade on Golan, already understrength, would've been outnumbered more than 12 to on, by just the first Syrian attackers (three infantry divisions with tanks). The defenders would've been quickly overwhelmed, and at much lower cost in tanks than occurred historically.
Had the situation on Golan deteriorated quickly, the Israelis, by about 3:30 PM on October 6, might've concluded that they had no choice but to send their jets en masse against the Syrian attackers, to prevent them breaking through to Israel itself. They had to do this despite losses from SAF/Hunter raids and the prospect of further heavy losses from Syrian SAMs and flak. So by nightfall on the 6th, another 30 or so IAF jets might've been downed. On just the first day, total Israeli losses on the northern front alone might've reached 110--more than were lost historically in the course of the whole war. Of course that would've been just the start. Fearing more attacks, the IAF would've almost certainly tried to neutralize the SAF. In the process it would've exposed itself to more SAMs and flak. In addition, MIG-23s could've scored additional kills. Given their limited maneuverability, they might have been best employed in chasing IAF jets heading back to base instead of in dogfighting.
Scenarios of this kind may seem far fetched but in theory it was possible for Syria to battle Israel on more even terms and prevail.



67 Comments:

Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Great post! You really have imagination and knowledge starman. Israel is darned lucky you weren't commanding the Arab states.

8:40 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Did the bases have flak protection?

8:45 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Lol, thanks very much for the praise. :) Yes the bases had flak protection. I don't think the AA gunners would've been alert, though--partly because it was a holiday, Yom Kippur, and also because few Israelis expected a deep penetration raid.

10:47 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Do you think the Tu-22 would've been even better suited for striking israeli bases than the Su-20?

12:09 PM  
Blogger starman said...

The TU-22 could've carried more bombs to crater runways and wouldn't have been limited to just strafing, due the limited endurance of SU-20s. But TU-22s would've been costlier to obtain in sufficient numbers and may not have been necessary for the most important task--destroying IAF warplanes. Strafing was the best method for that and was more important than payload capacity.
Of course for other types of missions, like napalming IDF reserves in traffic jams, TU-22s may have been best.

3:02 AM  
Anonymous Neal Robbins said...

The TU-22 would have made a difference in that war. Egypt was doing well (in some ways) in the early stages of the war. Using the TU-22 would have made it even better for the Egyptians and possibly resulted in an Egyptian victory.

5:46 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Would HAWKS be a problem for the attackers?

12:28 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Could the attack force also hit israel's nuclear arsenal or means of delivery?

12:30 PM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Would Israel has struck bad with nuclear bombs had the raid been a big success, destroying many jets?

12:33 PM  
Blogger starman said...

Neal,

Great comment! Indeed if TU-22s had savaged Israeli reserve units on the northern coast road on October 7, that might've essentially won the war for Egypt. The Israelis were quite sensitive to casualties.

emmanuel,

HAWKs were unlikely to have been a problem for the hypothetical SAF force as most of the missiles were in sinai.
I don't know if they could've hit Israel's nuclear arsenal or means of delivery. An Israeli nuclear response was possible, given the Israeli tendency to exaggerate threats and overreact. But the US would've no doubt tried to restrain Israel.

3:11 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

You mention 36 expended jets used to lure Israeli fighters into an ambush my MIG-23s. Wouldn't the pilot's have refused to be sacrificed like that?

5:19 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Or would they have been uninformed of the true purpose of their mission?

5:21 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

How would Su-20s have hit IDF tanks on Golan?

5:22 AM  
Blogger starman said...

The mediocre pilots of expendable planes could've been misinformed about the real purpose of their mission--to be sacrificed to nail top IAF jets at minimal cost to the better pilots and jets.
They might've been told their mission was simply to confuse the enemy--draw Israeli attention from an attack on Ramat David.
SU-20s could've used 82mm rockets to strike Israeli Centurion tanks on Golan.

5:44 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Would they have carried any air to air missiles for defense?

9:48 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Wouldn't the Su-20s have carried auxiliary fuel tanks as well as gun ammunition?

10:05 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

What is the maximum number of enemy warplanes they might have destroyed on the ground?

10:11 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

If approximately 50 Su-20s strated Israeli bases, couldn't they have destroyed more than 50 enemy jets?

10:12 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Good point--they would have carried auxiliary fuel tanks. But not air to air missiles, as they were relying on a decoy force and MIG-23s to deal with enemy interceptors.
The destruction of more than 50 Israeli jets was possible. The SU-20s might've destroyed over 100. But even assuming all 50 SU-20s reached the air bases SAF pilot skill may not have been high enough to ensure destruction of more than one enemy plane, on average, for every attacking jet.

3:10 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Was passing over Golan the best rout for the main SAF force?

8:17 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Was building an even bigger attack force possible between c 1970 and 1973?

8:19 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

What would've been the psychological effects of such a big raid?

3:58 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

In Israel? The Arab states? The US?

3:59 AM  
Blogger starman said...

It might've been better for the main SAF force to follow in the wake of the Hunters over Lebanon. But the Lebanese government wouldn't have liked it as it made Lebanon appear to be a belligerent, hence exposed the nation to possible reprisals. Allowing just the Hunters to go that way would've caused enough of a ruckus.
Given the limited number of Syrians with flying skills, I doubt a bigger force would've been possible even had more money been available to purchase more jets.

3:59 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Now as for the psychological effects: a successful SAF raid like the speculative one here would've been an ENORMOUS psychological boost to Syria and all arab states. Conversely it would've been vey humiliating and depressing for Israel. In the US Israel's supporters would go nearly insane with concern, and clamor even more loudly for US aid.

7:03 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Do you mean American Jews would go nearly insane with concern?

8:11 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

How would they clamor for more aid?

8:12 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

What sort of aid would they demand for Israel?

8:14 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Yes, given their passionate pro-Israel attitude, American Jews would become extremely concerned if Israel suffered a grave setback of this kind. They'd be extremely agitated and vocal in their demands for more aid to Israel, especially modern weapons.
They'd take to the streets and have big demonstrations while the pro-Israel lobby in Washington would bring the outmost pressure to bear on politicians.

2:54 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Of course that happened in real life immediately after the initial Arab gains of October 1973. I'd assume, though, that a real disaster for Israel would cause US Jews to redouble their efforts.

2:56 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

If Syria ever revives as a unified states, what kind of jets would be best suited for this mission in the future?

4:36 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Would Syria still require Russian jets?

4:37 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Syrian would probably still require Russian jets, although advanced Chinese models, essentially copies of the F-35 and F-22, would be just as good or better.
Good Russian jets would be the PAK FA or T-50 for air combat and some of the types just used against rebels for offense.

5:31 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Where's progrev?

6:41 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Could 30mm gun easily destroy Israeli jets on the ground?

6:43 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Progrev may be too busy for now. Yes 30mm guns could easily destroy Israeli jets on the ground.

2:47 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

If Syria never got MIG-23s, Su-20s or TU-22s, was there any chance the SAF could undertake the mission with SU-7s and MIG-17s?

4:01 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Perhaps using MIG-19s as decoys and MIG-21s as ambushers?

4:05 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Might it have been enough for Syria to use all available planes just to destroy the jets at Ramat David, the nearest enemy base?

4:59 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Your VERY intelligent questions never stop coming! :)

The problem with SU-7s was instability while flying at low altitude, which was disadvantageous for this type of mission. Not sure but MIG-17s may have lacked sufficient endurance to fly as far as Tel Noff and back.

MIG-19s would've made great decoys, but the SAF may not have had any in '73. As for MIG-21s as ambushers, again the problem was too limited endurance, especially when flying at low altitude.

It would've been best to maximize damage to the Israeli Air Force by hitting as many major bases as possible. True, it would've been easier and less risky to strike just Ramat David. But it wouldn't make much difference to he local (or overall) balance of forces. Most enemy aircraft would survive elsewhere and the enemy would just fly more planes there.

7:03 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

So still no progrev??

7:44 AM  
Blogger starman said...

No, but it was great to see Adham here (Murtagi's Role 1967 thread).

April 2, 2016

2:44 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

When did Arabs first acquire the Su-7?

5:37 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

If you know, what is our source? And your source for the Su-20 being better?

5:39 AM  
Blogger starman said...

The Egyptians began to test fly SU-7s late in 1966. They didn't like them much but accepted some under Soviet pressure.
An Egyptian later said the SU-20, in contrast, was a very good plane.
My source is PHOENIX OVER THE NILE A HISTORY OF EGYPTIAN AIRPOWER 1932-1994.

6:11 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

If the EAF could strike targets deep in Sinai with MIG-17s and Su-7s, couldn't the SAF have hit bases deep in lsrael with the same aircraft types?

7:57 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

How many priority did the air force actually have in Syria?

7:59 AM  
Anonymous progrev said...

Hi, whew, I finally got time to get back to you! I finally have started again to post flyers around town hopefully trying to educate and motivate people to fight for progressive change--wish me luck (I've just started, posting 80 flyers so far--hope to post 8,000 this year--yes, LA is a big town, big enough to have posts for them all!)!
I am reading your blog with interest while I don't know enough about your topic to say anything; but I am concerned over whether you see any prospects for justice for the Palestinians in any foreseeable future, with Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, possibly Al Qaeda, ISIS, and future governments of Libya, Egypt, and Syria on their side? I know this would be awfully speculative and I fear for Israel--did I ever tell you of my proposal to relocate Israel to the US?--and I am not the only one who has suggested that. Most important would be to provide huge economic aid to the Palestinians and other Arab masses because their big problem is poverty, but our government will not do that until we make the Revolution!

1:52 PM  
Blogger starman said...

Emmanuel,

Surprisingly, even though Assad sr was himself the air force commander, prior to becoming head of state, the SAF didn't get very high priority. Like Shazly the Syrians evidently believed it was futile to try to match Israeli air strength and the solution was SAMs. Furthermore since the goal was to recapture the lost territory-the Golan--the army had to receive the highest priority (i.e. hundreds of tanks, artillery pieces armored personnel carriers etc).
In theory the Syrians could've hit bases deep in Israel with SU-7s; not sure about MIG-17s. But again, I doubt they could've used MIG-21s as escort-ambushers (to limited endurance).

Progrev,

Great to see you back. :)

I recall you've posted flyers in the past, and passed them out but didn't get much response. Any reason to be more optimistic this time? It is true as I've mentioned that socialism has become more fashionable among those under 30.
There's little or no hope for progress for the Palestinians. Negotiations for a two state solution appear dead and our politicians, as usual, are too dependent on, or too afraid of, pro-Israel financiers and voters to do anything decisive.
The US has been providing a lot of economic aid to the arab masses notably in Egypt, but it has one little good because Cairo has failed to stop overpopulation.

3:08 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Nice answers starman.

12:21 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Will you get any more books of the ARAB MIGs series?

12:23 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Which ones may be of interest?

12:24 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Glad you like the answers. I might get another volume or two, not sure. The ones on the war of attrition and the 1982 Lebanon war would be of the most interest (after those I have now).

3:00 AM  
Anonymous progrev said...

Yes your answer to my question about the prospects for the Palestinians seems sadly realistic as well as for the Egyptian masses although I would like to say again if this isn't too repetitive that if aid were sufficient and well-used it would compensate for the high population level (and then like in all rich countries, population would start to decline).
And yes I have posted flyers in the past without much response like 5 responses when I put up 1,100 flyers. One difference this time is that I am aiming to post 8,000 flyers this year--so maybe I'll get 35 responses which might be enough to spark a movement I hope. But it's also the fact that through this long "recovery" from the Great Recession--which has felt to many people more like a recession itself--people are growing more and more disillusioned and angry about our existing system...so there's hope for us maybe!

4:15 PM  
Blogger starman said...

Thanks for the comment progrev but I would've preferred it be to the latest post. I'll reply there.

3:43 AM  
Blogger Emmanuel Ansu said...

Very informative answers on jets and strategy, starman.

5:31 AM  
Blogger Adham said...

"The plan would be to lure the remaining Israeli interceptors (i.e. not based at Ramat David), to go after the three dozen decoy jets. If things went according to plan, the Israeli Mirages and Neshers would approach and strike the decoys from the rear, using up many missiles and shells downing them. While they were preoccupied doing this, the 36 MIG-23s would emulate an old Israeli tactic and ambush their opponents from behind. Over a dozen IAF jets might've been downed or crippled and the remainder would have to deal with MIG-23s"

Using three dozen MIG-23s as decoy would be difficult for the Syrian command to swallow. Given that the Soviets would be hesitant in the first place to provide the arabs with the 23s.

But going with this scenario, its highly likely the Egyptians would press further into Sinai. The IAF and IDF will be thrown at the syrian front leaving Sinai virtually empty.

8:57 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Good to see you in this thread, Sleepinonduty.:)

The plan, as described in the post, calls for using 36 obsolete SU-7s as decoys and 36 MIG-23s as ambushers, behind and below the decoys.
True the Soviets c 1970 were reluctant to supply MIG-23s to the arabs. But Syria did get a few during the '73 war even if they weren't ready in time to participate in that conflict. I propose that, if Assad, the SAF AF commander had talked Ghadafy into buying 50 MIG-23s and 100 SU-20s (or 50 TU-22s and 50 SU-20s) instead of Mirages, the Soviets would've sold them, to get hard currency and another client. Libya would, in this scenario, allow Syrians to train on them and transfer them to Syria by early 1973.
If the plan had worked, the Israeli Air force would've had to focus on the Syrian front. The EAF would've had a much easier time. But plenty of IDF reserves would've still gone to Sinai.

3:26 AM  
Blogger starman said...

April 8, 2016, correction.

Oh excuse me, I see your username is Sleepingduringduty. :)

3:35 AM  
Blogger Adham said...

Regarding the reserves, that's what I thought first but lets say the Israelis do actually launch their entire airforce (whats left of it) against the Syrians just to get mauled by the Shilkas, Sa-2s and Sa-6s NOT MENTIONING the SAF. The air force would be decimated. Can the Israelis really endure the Syrian flood of tanks and apcs if they didnt commit their full force against them?

This will no longer be a retake the Golan scenario for the Syrians, a golden opportunity like this means this could be their only shot to actually defeat the Israelis once and for all ( PERHAPS the Jordanians would participate and the neighboring Arab countries send several regiments to participate and actually do something). The political agenda for Sadat would probably change as well and instead of retaking a slice of Sinai to force the Israelis to the bargaining table he would by force retake all of Sinai!

Lets not forget the psychological factor on the Israelis as well. The troops on the Syrian front could be fighting to the bitter end or surrender when they get the chance while the reserves in the Sinai will be extremely demoralized wondering why are they deployed here when the Syrians are rampaging their backyard!

8:08 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Great post! I love your attitude even if my views aren't quite the same. :)

The Israeli Air Force contributed little to stopping the Syrian offensive on Golan. I think Pollack mentioned that. Israeli armor--that of the barack and 7th armored brigades--played FAR more of a role in stopping the attack or inflicted FAR more losses on Syria's tanks.

My alternate scenarios envisage overcoming Israeli armor to enable Syria to retake Golan. As I've posted, the Syrians should have waited longer to deploy their three infantry divisions (with attached armored brigades) near the Golan. They shouldn't have sent them close to the front in September since the Israelis were alerted and reinforced the Golan with the powerful 7th Armored brigade before the war. If the Syrians had waited until the start of October to deploy their attack force, the Israelis wouldn't have had enough time to reinforce their defenses. The Syrians would have faced only about 71 tanks instead of 177.
Besides facing a smaller force the Syrians might've, of possible, used some attack aircraft to hit IDF tanks with rockets. Admittedly they were unlikely to be able to spare enough for that and still strike Israeli air bases in the manner described.
Just waiting longer (before deploying) to ensure a smaller defending force probably would've enabled the Syrians to break through sooner hence retake Golan before substantial enemy reinforcements made that impossible.

The problem would've the same in Sinai. Even had Israeli airpower been weakened, their armored force was still very capable. Any major Egyptian offensive might've been badly mauled just like the offensives which occurred historically like those of the 14th and 17th.
True a successful raid on IAF bases would've been a great morale booster for the arabs. I don't think, however, Israeli morale would've collapsed. Many Israelis would've been severely humiliated but still fairly confident and eager for revenge.

10:40 AM  
Blogger Adham said...

What would have been the situation of their Air Defense network by the 8th of October in Sinai ? The IAF would in my opinion prioritize the Iraqi and Syrian air force over the Egyptian which could have given the Egyptians air superiority over Sinai? The IDF reserves could be badly mauled by the EAF and everything about them from weaponry and numbers exposed by camera equipped SU-7s. Again this assuming that the Israeli air defense got weakened. The planes would prioritize the tanks above all. Even with the correct tactics applied the Israelis would need the appropriate firepower. Stripping that away from them and the 14 or the 17th would be hard occur. IDF infantry lacked the weaponry and their APCs would just tickle the armored hordes of T-55s ....well fine...cause damage to certain equipment but you know what I mean.

Plus I think you are leaving aside the Jordanians who might be at this point pressured by other Arab nations to get involved in the war.

8:38 AM  
Blogger starman said...

Great to see you back, Sleepingduringduty. :0

True had the SAF destroyed a large part of the IAF at the start, and retained a large number of modern planes like MIG-23s, the Israeli Air Force would've prioritized it, and the Iraqi Hunters too of course. It may be a bit optimistic but high initial IAF losses and diversion elsewhere could've given the EAF air superiority. But I doubt they could've inflicted enough losses on Israeli armor to enable the Egyptians to break through. The EAF was mostly designed for air defense i.e. back up air defense. Ground attack was secondary. SU-7s had problems and there were very few SU-20s. If Syria, being closer to big Israeli bases, got all the modern planes, as described in this scenario, and the EAF had lower priority, not much could be expected from the latter.
I think the hypothetical (alternate) circumstances would have made a considerable difference in Sinai. The Egyptians may not have been able to break through, but they could at least advance into lightly defended areas without having to worry so much about going beyond SAM cover. And, while I don't think they could've destroyed many tanks, they could have inflicted more losses on Israeli supply columns. It's also likely that, without air superiority, the Israelis would've had to abandon plans for crossing the canal--or at least trying to advance far west of the waterway, with their supply lines exposed to EAF raids.

5:01 AM  
Blogger Adham said...

Was there any chance for Egypt to acquire TU-16s? I think it could have solved the ground bombing problem and what about the IL-28s and turning MiG-15s all the way to MIG-19s(Whats left of them) to ground bombing duties while keeping the MIG-21 in air defense?

This sounds like a crude strategy but what about moving SA-2s in small numbers to still retain the air defense umbrella across the canal. When enough batteries are relocated you would have an all out advance and I mean across the entire theater instead of sending brigade level units but actual army level. Could take a very long time but it will be a red tide very slowly sweeping into Sinai.

3:20 PM  
Blogger starman said...

Always great to see your comments. :)
Egypt already had TU-16s before the '67 war and used them in '73, albeit cautiously. If you meant TU-22s, it's hard to say. One problem is that Egypt didn't have much hard currency to pay for them. As I wrote I think the Soviets would've sold TU-22s to oil rich Libya. But would they have sold enough--over 100--for both the SAF operation and an improved EAF ground attack capability? It's hard to say. Maybe the USSR would've provided many more SU-20s, starting in 1971, had Ghadafy been persuaded to buy Soviet jets instead of Mirages and in sufficient quantity to meet the special needs of both SAF and EAF.
I don't think Cairo still had MIG-15s or MIG-19s in the early '70s. There may have been a few at most. It did have many SU-7s and MIG-17s. In my scenario, above, the MIG-17s loaned to Syria with their pilots would've remained in Egypt but the SAF would get the elite Iraqi Hawker Hunters.
I think the Egyptians did contemplate moving SAM-6s (which were more mobile than SA-2s, and better able to deal with low level enemy attackers) across the canal. But they don't seem to have done so. Maybe they feared the SAMs would be too vulnerable to Israeli artillery.
Btw, Sleepinduringduty, any luck finding members of the old Egypt subforum?


April 24, 2016

3:02 AM  
Blogger Adham said...

Hey, sorry for the late reply, going through some drama lately. I contacted one of the Americans that used to be in the old forum and hopefully soon we will get everybody together. Btw according to wikipedia and the source not mentioned, by October 1973 Egypt had around 60 MIG-19s and there is a famous photo of a MIG-15 (I think, definitely not a Mig-21. It might be a MIG-17) flying over israeli soldiers after they had crossed to Egypt.

Dont you think that even the 21s can be assigned to ground attack role with unguided rockets? In the end what you really need is to strip the IDF in Sinai from is their tanks. Without their armored fist no matter what they have left of other equipment they wouldnt have the firepower to halt Egyptian advance. Assuming we moved our SA-6s and SA-3 Goa to the other side.

2:58 PM  
Blogger starman said...

Always great to hear from you, whenever you have time. :)
What American did you contact? I know the guy who had the username Gomig is in the US. It would be great if he can get the old gang together here or somewhere.
I never heard of any actions involving MIG-19s in 1973. Of course MIG-17s were still in use, on the first day of the war and later, so it wouldn't be surprising if you saw a photo of one in action.
Of course MIG-21s could be used for ground attack missions with rockets. By the way, one of the ARAB MIGs books (Volume 6) says one of the MIG-21 variants, the MIG-21F-13, was better at dogfighting than the MIG-21MF because, in addition to having a 30mm gun instead of a 23mm, its pilots were only trained for air combat. MIG-21MF pilots also had to train for ground attack missions.
Sure, in 1973 the Israeli army was highly reliant on tanks and aircraft. SAM, artillery and antitank forces didn't amount to much. If the air force could be weakened or neutralized at the start, and most of the tanks knocked out, the Israeli army would not have been able to resist a major Egyptian offensive.

3:14 AM  

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